RedV01
SGI NSW Cup
Okay
1st Grade Readiness
- Thread starter jodragon40
- Start date
jodragon40
Staff
In the real RL world there is a pecking order and generally coaches and selectors stick loyal to those players who have lost their place due to injury and not loss of form
jodragon40
Staff
Agree
Justadragon
SGI NSW Cup
I'd like to see him get pushed in trials first though, but yes agree.
jodragon40
Staff
Has to prove his fitness before boarding the plane
Dragon David
SGI Jersey Flegg
Flanno has placed big wraps on Setu Tu and David Fale. These trials coming up in 2 and a half weeks time will determine who our starting wingers will be I'd say.
Frank Facer
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Based on Coutts highlights reel, I believe Coutts would make a better centre than Suli. He looks to be just as quick, maybe even quicker. Looks to have a better step. Looks to have a better in and away. Looks to have a better passing game, looks to be able to shrug off defenders as well, if not better than Suli, looks better in the air than Suli. I have stated I think Suli should be playing edge backrow. Suli's best attribute is his straight hard running and his toughness. I think he would also be good defending at edge backrow. I know we are well stocked in edge backrowers and it is unlikely Flanno will try him there this year.
BTW I am not saying Coutts would not make a good second rower either. He has the makings of prototype modern day edge backrower.
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Dragons Chris
SGI NSW Cup
He might do but we have Buchanan and Heidke who are both specialist centres and might be banging on the first grade door as early as this year.
Why would you want to go with a second rower instead?
GCRV
SGI NSW Cup
Is he even on a development deal for this year? Buchanan is. I very much doubt we will ever see him as a starting first grade centre. At most, if he ever makes first grade, he might fill in at centre during a game if the starting centre is injured.
Looks like a good second rower. He's up against some very tough competition for that position at the Dragons. Ideally he'd be able to turn himself into a middle forward. So next year we have:
- KK
- R. Couchman
- T. Couchman
- Stewart
- Coutts
Eric
Staff
Analysis = True
(What do they say? Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.)But seriously, you are right. Forwards are going to be very good next year. I guess we have given up on KK coming this year.
You forgot LPT in your list. I wouldn't write off Hutchinson either. I'm not an expert obviously. Because I don't understand how a far from "small" though not really big prop who runs hard, tackles well, passes before the line and offloads and does it for a lot of minutes isn't more highly rated.
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jodragon40
Staff
Frank Facer you appear to have considerable historical knowledge of the game and you are entitled to your opinion but I think it is very safe to say that young Coutts will be playing in the backrow in the ressies this season, and most probably off the bench depending on who is selected in on our 1sts team and bench.After all he is a veteran of only 10 ressies games for the Sharks feeder club the Newtown Jets. Had a great start to that career scoring 2 tries against the Roosters in round 12 .
He shows considerable promise but he is way down the pecking order behind our more established young 2nd rowers.
Believe it or not he actually played most of his juniors as a 6, hence his skillsets but he has simply outgrown that position. Hence his move to the backrow some 4 years ago now. He won't in my opinion be reverting back to the backline.
Just my views.
Frank Facer
SGI Jersey Flegg
As I have previously mentioned numerous times. If they are good enough, they are old enough. Many posters on this forum and others, keep saying players aren't ready for first grade and this thread is dedicated to that theory. I am wondering if any posters can give any examples of players who were blooded when they weren't "ready for first grade" and then later were ready and become really good players?
Ryan
SGI NSW Cup
Can't think of one.
GCRV
SGI NSW Cup
I agree with you Flanno has been way too conservative. Couchmans were killing it in reserve grade for most of 2024.
But as to who you are talking about, the question is who had a lot of talent, was put in too early, lost a lot of confidence and ended up never being ad good as they were expected to be.
Frank Facer
SGI Jersey Flegg
Remember Cory Oates? He has some big wraps on him as a second rower before debuting on the wing for Brisbane. After seeing him play wing and knowing he was a second rower as a junior, I actually thought he was going to made a good second rower. He turned out to be a very good winger who played origin on the wing. He even saw himself as a second rower and wanted to return to the second row. According to AI he played all of his 216 games in first grade on the wing.
Zac Lomax was a centre and fullback in his juniors. I didn't see him as a winger, even though I would have given him a run on the wing to debut and to ease him into first grade. He didn't see himself as a winger either, even when Flanno moved him to the wing last year, he wanted out and left us to play for Parra for a reported 200 grand less a season, to play centre. Flanno had vision and insight to move him to the wing and it was a master stroke on his part.
Tonie Carroll from Brisbane was a very good centre, who was moved to second row later in his career. He played centre for Qld and later played second row for Qld too.
Back in the early 80's John Ribot was a second rower playing for Western Suburbs, who was moved to the wing by Roy Masters. He then went on to play for Qld and Australia on the wing and it was said to be a master stroke on Roy Masters part, by moving a second rower to the wing.
In the early 80's Noel Cleal was a great centre for Eastern Suburbs, who was moved to the second row and who played for NSW and Australia at second row.
There are also many others who started their career in the centres, who were moved to the second row later in their careers. Gene Miles is one of the best examples. He was that good at centre, he and Brett Kenny kept Mal Meninga out of the Australian team on the 1986 Ashes tour. He finished his career in the second row and was a very good second rower at that.
Frank Facer
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I would trial Coutts in NSW Cup as a centre to see how he goes there. I have already stated numerous times why I think he has the attributes to make a good centre. The other reason is I think we are well stocked in good edge backrowers, while I think we are a bit slim on good centres and even think Suli should be moved to the second row, but again, Suli would have some good young competition at second row for us now. I would have moved Suli to the second row 2 or 3 years ago.
Buchanan debuted last year and was OK but I am not convinced of him. I do hope he can develop his game and take it to another level. He lacks size, which is probably my biggest concern regarding Buchananwhile Coutts does have good size and body shape to play centre. I do like big fast strapping centres, ala Gene Miles and Mal Meninga.
I have only seen a brief highlights reel of Heidke and have hopes for him, but am not sure if he will be a long term regular first grader.
I would "experiment" with Coutts at centre in NSW Cup and go from their. Chances are we are going to need someone to step up and cover a centre position at some point this year. As for Coutts playing 5/8 as a junior, that also gives me a bit more confidence he would be able to play centre.
Frank Facer
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I just remembered another forward who was turned into a back. Ewan Aitken was a backrower as a junior, I think he played lock. He was then moved to centre by McGregor when he debuted at 19 years old. He was going pretty good in his first season and was even spoken of as a future NSW centre, but to me he was always a forward playing center. He lacked the passing game to play centre. Coutts has much more strings to his bow than Aitken did to play centre, including a good passing game.
Frank Facer
SGI Jersey Flegg
As Ryan said, I can't think of one.
One who does come to mind is Luke Brookes. Andrew Johns put the biggest wrap on him possible before he debuted at 18, in the last game of the season for Wests against us. He then never lived up to the wraps that were put on him, but has been a regular first grader ever since and was apparently on 900K a season at Wests. I don't think it was due to him debuting too young. West kept him over Moses and made the wrong decision there.
Dave Taylor debuted for Brisbane aged 17 and looked to be a champion in the making, but he never went on with it and reached the heights expected of him, but I don't think it was because he debuted when he wasn't ready.
Frank Facer
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Last year Flanno was pretty much forced to debut a lot of youngsters due to our massive injury toll during the season. LKT, Halangahu and Buchanan all only debuted due to injuries. Halangahu was one who some thought wasn't ready for first grade, but when given the chance he played very well and showed he does have a future as an NRL first grader and potential rep player. He was the Australian Schoolboys captain and had big wraps on him.